Transcript: Sacred Pixels, Episode Five

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Mahita Valluri: On this mini podcast series so far, we have heard from scholars and philologists who have been working very hard for several years to ethically procure knowledge that is embodied in these manuscripts and preserve it in a contemporary sustainable manner while being mindful of the authenticity and the original purpose of the object. For this final episode, we have a very special guest joining us from Indonesia, who represents a major demographic. Florentine Nadya, who’s an archaeology undergraduate from the University of Gadjah Mada Indonesia, is here today to provide a glimpse into the non-specialist local perspectives on manuscripts and digital returns. Thank you so much for being here today, Nadia. I am very excited to learn from you. 

Florentine Nadya: You’re welcome. 

MV: It’s our pleasure. Over to you now to introduce yourself. 

FN: OK, so my name is Florentine Nadya. You can also call me Florentine or Nadya. So, I’m studying in the archaeological department and now I’m studying in University of Gadjah Mada. I like to learn about archaeological things such as a museum or conservation or preservation or repatriation also. 

MV: I want to start off this conversation by asking you a question that I think is very basic, but it’s also very important. Have you ever seen a manuscript in person? And if you did, do you remember where you saw it and what type of manuscript it was? How did that make you feel? 

FN: I have seen a manuscript, in our museum called Sonobudaya Museum and also Kraton. So, we have Kraton in Yogyakarta and I usually see the manuscript in temporary exhibitions held in Museum Sonobudoyo. But some of it are permanently shown, like maybe it’s Javanese manuscript, with aksara Jawa (ed. Javanese script). But I’m sorry I don’t know the title about that. It’s about Islamic thing manuscript and I feel like a little happy with us seeing the manuscript. I think it’s in good condition to see. 

MV: I’m glad to hear that it was in a good condition for you to see. What I was wondering was when you went to see these manuscripts, did you ever have the opportunity to touch the manuscripts or to read the text properly? Were you able to flip through the pages, handle the manuscript with your hands and make sense of what was written in? 

FN: It’s just in the glass, so I just see maybe a little page of the book. So it will be in vitrine, I think? 

MV: Yeah. And I think that’s something that most people like us, and, by us, I mean students and those of us who are interested in manuscripts, can relate to that because. The only ever time that I did see a manuscript in person, it was behind a glass case, and I was extremely limited because of that because I couldn’t touch it. I couldn’t read the text. All I could really do was appreciate the illuminations, which looked fabulous. This sort of brings me to my next question, which is how do you think manuscripts are treated compared to the sculptures and other material objects from Indonesia’s past? Do you think that manuscripts are given the same significance that sculptures and material objects like crests and jewellery receive? 

FN: I do, yes, because manuscript content historical evidence of how human establish their cultural civilization, right? And they are one of the written histories, so it can show us a little about how humans preserve their legacy. 

MV: Why is there a need for us to protect and preserve these manuscripts? You were talking about how it is written history, so how much or to what extent does it provide a glimpse into the culture and the civilization of the people of Indonesia? 

FN: Ah, I think the manuscript needs to be protected and preserved because they contain so many historical evidence of some history, like they give us conception on how people in the past live and tell about their own perspective at the time, right? So, it can be a living evidence who wrote the manuscript, even though not all of the manuscripts are written at the same time as the history happened, but usually they did. I think manuscripts can present historical glimpse about our culture. Based on my little research, usually the writer or manuscript are usually in high social status, such as king, prince, or some intellectual nobility, right? So, I think the manuscript can help us show how kingdom life works at the time, but can present accurate historical glimpse about civilians in Indonesia I think. 

MV: In our podcast, we’ve been grappling with the idea of a manuscript as a pusaka because, you know, most of these manuscripts are old and in Java and also in Indonesia at large, there is this culture of treating something that’s old as something that is sacred, like pusaka. Do you think its status as a pusaka affected the perception and use of a manuscript, in the sense that has it distanced you from the textual heritage by making the text inaccessible where you are sort of asked not to touch a manuscript or not to read a manuscript because it’s a pusaka and it could sort of influence you in in a way. 

FN: I think the manuscript is pusaka because the status as pusaka proves that manuscript can be seen as the same artifact that we have. So I need to protect the manuscript also because they are kind of artifacts. But for the information that is contained inside the manuscript, it’s important to us to be accessed, right? So, for [the] same reason I just think that read the manuscript can help us understand more about our history. But on the other side, I understand why it become hard to access. In my opinion, I think it can be a little distressed for us to access the text, but the government still gives us a little way, maybe a harder way to access the manuscript.  

MV: Have you ever read the text in a manuscript? Because you know so far what I’ve seen is first, there’s the idea of the text as pusaka that somebody who isn’t well equipped to read it could have negative effects on their health, on their life and all of that. Also, the fact that the language is a little difficult. So, have you ever attempted to read the text of a manuscript? And if you have, what was the text, if you remember and how was your experience of reading it? 

FN: Yeah, maybe I’m a little lucky that I have read a little because I know a little about aksara Jawa (ed. Javanese script). Like we learned about that a little in high school, and also in archaeological we studied about Javanese letters, so I know. So, I have read a little piece because they are shown in vitrine that I told you lately, but I’m sorry I forget the title about that. But I’m sure that it was a Jogja’s Kraton manuscript written in Javanese letter. I think it’s about religion and it’s also shown about wayang. We have wayang here, and usually in Islamic history in here, wayang is usually used to teach the people about Islamic things. So the way I think about religion. 

MV: Did you find it sort of difficult to read the text? Like what? What did you feel when you were reading it? 

FN: I think it’s a little hard because I personally can’t use Javanese. So when I read it, I just read it like the letter, but I don’t know the meaning. So, it’s kind of hard for me, but to understand about the manuscript itself. 

MV: Right. I’d like to move on now to the crux of this podcast project. So in 2019, the British Library presented the Sultan of Yogyakarta with the master copy of the digitized Yogyakarta manuscripts, which were looted from the Kraton in 1812 by the British troops. But you know these returns are made only in a digital form. Were you aware that such a return was made? If yes, do you agree with the terming of this process is a return when the physical copies of the manuscripts are still at the British Library? 

FN: Of course, I’m a little bit concerned about that because I’m an archaeological student, right? So I’m a little disagree about that kind of return because the physical copies are still in the British Library, right? I know that it can be well preserved by the staff in the British Library but as an Indonesian myself, I think they belong to Kraton and need to be returned back as based on history, it was taken by British government, by stole it. I don’t know, I a little disagree. Maybe it’s better to return the physical, maybe if you want to preserve it in here, it’s better, I think. 

MV: I totally understand where you’re coming from, but I do have a follow up question for you. So why do you think that the physical copy of a manuscript is still so important? Because you know, they’re still only partially returned by the British Library. The physical copies are still there. What makes it important for you, especially when the text of the manuscript, the content that makes this object, is now available widely for your use and for your understanding. Why do you think there’s still this need for people to own a physical copy of the manuscript? 

FN: I think for the archaeological student like me, the physical is still important, right? Like the original one is the important. We have to have something physical, so we can see them, see through the manuscript not just see digitised thing. I think it’s more important to us to have the original one than the digitised one. 

MV: Yeah. And speaking of digitised manuscripts, I was wondering if you ever had the opportunity to access the British Library’s website where these Yogyakarta manuscripts are on their blog. If you have, how is your experience navigating through the blog site where the manuscripts are available, and what do you think are some benefits or disadvantages when a manuscript is being digitised, what is lost and what do you think is found? 

FN: Certainly, I never accessed that, but I will do it soon. But I think it’s kind of hard to find it because I have tried to search it in website and I haven’t met it yet. So I don’t know, maybe it’s kind of hard. Of course, there’s advantage if we like have the digitised manuscript because we can see it easier, because it’s like the physical. But I think the disadvantage is I think for some bad people, they can like copy it or print it. We never know about that, right? So I think it’s a little bad and good at the same time. 

MV: Yeah, I do want to ask you to follow up on what you said about the disadvantage. So you said a lot of people can reproduce it on their own terms if it’s available online, what do you think is the problem with that, if you sort of just print it out? Is it because the manuscript is a pusaka? That what they do is probably ethically not right? 

FN: I think so, because I think for pusaka like maybe kris which is the same as pusaka, we have like originality and we have like majestic things. So, if you print it not in the good way, it can be like give you some bad luck or something. 

MV: I see that’s actually quite interesting. You know, when I was putting this podcast series together, I had a long list of guest callers and philologists in mind to ask them questions about manuscript as a pusaka and the digitization project and what goes on behind the scenes of it and also the importance of the text of a manuscript. I wanted to make these conversations available for a large audience, you know, from both the academic field and the non-academic field, and I was able to do that. But personally for me it was important to include a conversation that often happens behind closed doors. By that I mean, in classrooms, you know, between students, and we have a unique position as well, right? We’re still involved in the field, but we’re not specialists yet. So, we’re partially aware of what’s going on. And we do have these conversations on a regular basis where we’re talking about what the object means to us and we’re perceiving the politics of its display and of its return. And these conversations aren’t really heard a lot by people who aren’t a part of this field, and sometimes not even by people who are really deeply involved with the field because there is a distance between students and professionals. So, I wanted to ask you if you weren’t a student of humanities, do you believe that you would be aware of Indonesia’s textual heritage and the conversations around repatriation and digital returns? How do most non-academic people react to these conversations on restitution back home? And do you think they are aware of the full picture when they’re talking about returns or repatriation? 

FN: Yeah, OK. It’s such an interesting question for me. I think people nowadays, especially in my age, are more aware of this kind of historical thing, but I hesitate that they are aware of textual heritage because the news are not viral enough to catch their attention. But for the repatriation, I think, especially the art properties repatriation has gone viral and I think they are aware about that. Maybe if I become like them, maybe I interest for something that’s viral, maybe like the repatriation, not the manuscript, etcetera. I think for nowadays, maybe there are not understand about the language inside the manuscript, so they will not understand. The thing is it’s just a text, and this isn’t something that is important enough because they don’t know what meaning or what the story behind the original manuscript. So, I think that’s the reason why. Because for kris or something that is just an artifact, not a words that we have to understand, it will be more easier for us to understand about that. Right? So I think that’s the reason why. 

MV: Yeah, that kind of makes sense. And kind of following up on this conversation about non-academic people in Indonesia reacting to conversations on restitution. What is one common thing or one famous thing that everybody keeps saying about restitution or repatriation? And do you think they’re aware of the full picture or is it just something about, Yeah, we have to get it back? Or do they care about how you’re getting it back and what is actually happening to them once they’re back? 

FN: I think they are concerned about, like the Prajnaparamita [to Singasari] one because this is the most rare one, right? So they are aware about that. And I think the kris one because they’re so unique and they have history in it, because the kris is owned by our hero at the time. So, it will be so important to us, I think it’s because of that. Maybe just like because of the background of it? 

MV: What do you perceive as the biggest challenges to the Indonesian textual heritage today? 

FN: I think the challenge we face is about tangible and intangible. So, for the tangible, we have problem with availability of human resource for expert with textile conservation. So, I’m not sure our textual heritage can be preserved well if it’s not our responsibility to aware about that. And also for the people usually aren’t aware about textual heritage. So it’s intangible, I think because few of them are not having interest in knowing about Indonesian past like I said lately. Yeah, I think it’s about that. In 2018, around that, Sultan (ed. Hamengkubuwana X) was interviewed by local one and they say about the same problem, I think it’s about human resource of us to preserve about that. Maybe we need some little help to preserve that manuscript. 

MV: Yes, absolutely. I think a collaborative approach in preserving our culture and presenting it to our future generations is the way forward, because I don’t think any of our histories are isolated, we’re all interlinked and we’ve always been interlinked. And the way I look at manuscripts is also in a way where it tells multiple stories, right? Manuscripts collect multiple histories, and you can dissect a lot about what’s happening. For example, the kind of ink that is used, there’s a history behind that, the paper that is used. The manuscripts don’t just tell the story about Indonesian history and Javanese society in this case, but the archives that store these manuscripts also have a lot of other forms of textual heritage—letters that were written by the Kings to other rulers, to other countries. So there’s like some correspondence that sheds light on how the neighboring countries had a relationship with Indonesian rulers and Indonesian kingdoms. And then there’s, of course, the colonial history, and the way it affected the Southeast Asian part of the world. So there’s, like multiple stories, and it’s good if we have a fraternal community to decode them and to understand where they fit in this political climate. So, I agree with you when you say there is, there is hope and scope for a collaborative approach to it and maybe digitisation projects provide an opportunity for that fraternal collaboration. 

FN: Truly right, I agree with. 

MV: All right. Thank you so much, Nadia. It was great to listen to your thoughts and I’m sure our audience will appreciate listening to what an Indonesian archaeology student thinks about everything that we’ve been discussing. So, thank you for joining us. 

FN: Thank you.